"So you're saying that you don't expect the proposed version will feel controllable?"

[Karry]

Celestalon 2016.

Is this guy for real ? How does a human being even ask such a question when the difference between the current dance and their proposed version is clear as day. There are other things they can do to add flavor to dance and make it even cooler but not imba but what they are proposing is insane and would make the spec pretty unenjoyable ( for me at least ). It would make the spec feel very hectic constantly having your bars switching and being constantly in and out of dance.

Anyone else feel the same or does it seem to you that this version might be better due to "more action" ?

[AgilityTank]

Your post is a bit hard to understand.

[Mafic]

He is arguing that with every finisher you will have potentially more control over it. The problem is that it loses its potency if they balance around it with every potential finisher that allows you to enter shadow dance state.

Blizz is missing the big picture and that it is fun to have a powerful cool down you control. Finishers haven't been interesting for Rogues in a quite a long time.

[Karry]

Since we are spamming finishers anyway, getting to spam ambush every now and then doesnt sound too interesting. What's nice about the current dance is you can choose if you want to start garroting and making sap plays and stuff like that. Seems like now we would not have that choice at all. I mean really once you garrote someone once/twice you are basically stuck with spamming ambush right ?

Not to mention it promotes the "spam" of our abilities with which we control our target. Problem is, those arent abilities that need spamming. Those are abilities that we choose to use at the right time. This whole thing just doesnt seem like a positive change at all and more like "let's shake things up and screw stuff around for Legion sake" rather than something well thought out. If this goes into beta like this it will be a sad day cause you know they ain't changing anything after that.

[Mafic]

Since we are spamming finishers anyway, getting to spam ambush every now and then doesnt sound too interesting. What's nice about the current dance is you can choose if you want to start garroting and making sap plays and stuff like that. Seems like now we would not have that choice at all. I mean really once you garrote someone once/twice you are basically stuck with spamming ambush in stealth right ?

Yeah you lose a lot of utility for PVP and for PVE you lose the satisfaction of lining things up for Dance. I understand they are trying to make finisher more interesting but this isn't the way to go about it unless they make Shadow Blades super amazing.

[RobertoCarlos]

Just more evidence blizzard really don't know what they are doing when it comes to rogue.

[RobertoCarlos]

Well..apparently that is true for every class, every specc and every aspect of the game - judging by the QQ about anything and everything about the game.

That or the players who..after all are players and not developers and designers are clueless. I mean. If you guys really know so much about game design, why are you not designing games?

Really dude? You're using that age old argument? Ok get me a job at blizzard, I'll show you what I could do.

[AgilityTank]

Really dude? You're using that age old argument? Ok get me a job at blizzard, I'll show you what I could do.

Can definately argue that pissing in the wind figuratively doesn't help anyone as well. Rogue design has always been highly debatable. I mostly play the game as it's given to me.

[RobertoCarlos]

Can definately argue that pissing in the wind figuratively doesn't help anyone as well. Rogue design has always been highly debatable. I mostly play the game as it's given to me.

Rogue design has never been highly debatable. They got it right the first time, then each expansion they fiddle and tweak key components untill you're left with just another melee dps.

And now they think removing key abilities and giving them to only one spec gives the spec "flavor" it's retarded imo.

[elfporn]

Rogue design has never been highly debatable. They got it right the first time, then each expansion they fiddle and tweak key components untill you're left with just another melee dps.

And now they think removing key abilities and giving them to only one spec gives the spec "flavor" it's retarded imo.

you're way off with this comment. Rogue design has been neglected - they didn't "get it right the first time" it's never had a complete overhaul like every other class/spec.

Firstly, the alpha doesn't represent any "done" part of rogues right now, outlaw is probably the furthest along.

And yes, it's always been debatable because of the ideas vented here in this thread and others. IE: someone always knows better than the designers and becomes angry when they can't understand incomplete changes.

or maybe i'm just a blizzard fanboy being overly harsh to armchair devs.

[shaunika123]

am i the only one who actually LIKES the concept of the new shadow dance?

a: in pve it's much more satisfying than sitting on your ass for 10 seconds of fame every minute
b: in pvp it means that they're trying to have less and less big offensive cooldowns, which are basically the thing that's ruining pvp in the first place. and again it turns us from a one minute hero to something more consistent.

[Deleted]

I actually like the change ideas. Besides there's no PTR, hardly any of us are on alpha, we have no idea what it will be like but it looks great on paper.

Besides, we're getting shadow blades back That will be the new burst cooldown instead of shadow dance. Sub is finally embrassing a "mystical shadow melee class" rather than just a flat "pop up and nuke" class cannon rlying on feint to soak damage between shadowdance up times, with slice and dice on the side to auto attack more and grind opponents down.

Yes the spec will be easier to play, but quite frankly who cares unless you want to be a special snowflake who is the only one who has the skill to play it.

The synergy and flow is what matters more than the DPS. I'm actually happy that they are diversifying rogues more and that we won't have to keep crap like recuperate (it used to regen energy) or slice and dice up to do dps. Also, pretty sure kidney shot is having its energy cost removed.

[Coldkil]

Just in, please avoid any kind of naming/shaming - the OP isn't the best start at all, but it seems discussion is going well. Any infract-worth stuff an the thread is going to be closed.

[Karry]

I wouldn't say this is naming and shaming since the post is on the front page. I'm just getting it a tad bit more attention because what he says seems like something that someone who uses logical thought shouldn't say.

They obviously have a different vision for the sub rogue, and I'm not at all against the "new" ( 2 abilities baked in *cough cough* ) abilities and the general shadowy ways that the spec is going in. My only gripe is removing CHOICE.

People seem to already make the argument about "special snowflakes" and stuff like that. When that's not even the thing that is debated here. Making a CHOICE, a DECISION, to activate Dance and make sap plays and cheap shot 3 targets in arena is something that anyone can do. It's not as easy as playing a warrior but it's not being a special snowflake if you learn your class.

This new mechanic for dance will give us a small window to basically just spam ambush for a few seconds because it will be on pretty randomly and we wont get to make the same plays as before. If anything....if anything, this just makes the spec in a way your normal average warrior. Just train targets without having plays in mind ( save for rare ones ).

It just seems like it will be like a Sin spec/warrior...with Shadow dmg.

[Willoughby]

a: in pve it's much more satisfying than sitting on your ass for 10 seconds of fame every minute

I disagree. When it becomes mechanical and routine, it gets boring to me. Assassination's gameplay follows that same concept, and the cyclical gameplay of pooling (lol), finishing, dumping energy and repeating isn't particularly compelling (in my opinion) without something to break it up and cause some sort of conflict. Legion Shadow Dance sounds a lot like the gameplay Envenom provides, and it's fine to enjoy that sort of thing, but a spec like that already exists.

What makes sub so interesting in WoD is the tug of war between your uptime maintenance and your cooldowns, and the ebb and flow of planning for your burst window and executing it.

b: in pvp it means that they're trying to have less and less big offensive cooldowns, which are basically the thing that's ruining pvp in the first place. and again it turns us from a one minute hero to something more consistent.

In PVP, Dance is just as much of a utility/defensive cooldown as it is an offensive one. What makes it such a liked cooldown is its flexibility and the control it provides. Calling it an offensive cooldown is almost missing the point.

[shaunika123]

I disagree. When it becomes mechanical and routine, it gets boring to me. Assassination's gameplay follows that same concept, and the cyclical gameplay of pooling (lol), finishing, dumping energy and repeating isn't particularly compelling (in my opinion) without something to break it up and cause some sort of conflict. Legion Shadow Dance sounds a lot like the gameplay Envenom provides, and it's fine to enjoy that sort of thing, but a spec like that already exists.

What makes sub so interesting in WoD is the tug of war between your uptime maintenance and your cooldowns, and the ebb and flow of planning for your burst window and executing it.


In PVP, Dance is just as much of a utility/defensive cooldown as it is an offensive one. What makes it such a liked cooldown is its flexibility and the control it provides. Calling it an offensive cooldown is almost missing the point.

i know, but wouldnt having an opener every few seconds have more utility/defense overall? especially since it'll also give us huge mobility.

as for pve, it's just as cyclical, it's just that you cycle less often, and it's more powerful, i honestly never got the big fuss over sub's complicatedness over assa, no spec is hard in pve, both assa and sub is easy, and fun for different reason, the only "skillcap" sub has in pve is the fact that your rupture can disappear faster than you can say "dafuq" and you have to plan for that, other than that tracking cooldowns and pooling energy aint exactly rocket science. ive been playing mostly sub for over 10 years now, and it hasnt been as easy as it is now since TBC. dont get me wrong i love it, but changing it wouldnt hurt it either, im more interested in it being fun than complex especially for pve.

[Deleted]

as for pve, it's just as cyclical, it's just that you cycle less often, and it's more powerful, i honestly never got the big fuss over sub's complicatedness over assa, no spec is hard in pve, both assa and sub is easy, and fun for different reason, the only "skillcap" sub has in pve is the fact that your rupture can disappear faster than you can say "dafuq" and you have to plan for that, other than that tracking cooldowns and pooling energy aint exactly rocket science. ive been playing mostly sub for over 10 years now, and it hasnt been as easy as it is now since TBC. dont get me wrong i love it, but changing it wouldnt hurt it either, im more interested in it being fun than complex especially for pve.

You can't honestly think that the only skillcap in Sub is not letting rupture fall off, I mean come.. on...
You say that tracking cooldowns and pooling energy is not rocket science and I agree, it's not, but that doesn't mean that it's easy enough for everyone to do it. 99.5% of the rogues can't utilize things like their cooldown and energy usage. And I am not exaggerating with that number. I'm spending enough time watching rogue streamers and going through logs and I can tell you even the best and most famous rogues make mistakes, and more often than you'd think. It's not because they're bad, but because Sub is extremely hard to play flawlessly.

But people do not defend the current state of Sub and Dance simply because it's "hard". More importantly it's rewarding. You plan ahead, refresh your snd, pool energy, line up your cds and execute that sweet burst phase perfectly? You feel satisfied now, even proud of yourself and feel more confident now. THAT is the feeling that keeps many rogues, myself included, so attached to the Subtlety that we know and love. And the proposed version of Shadow Dance for Legion takes all of that away and transforms the spec into another mind-numbingly boring rotational spec as what Assa is today.

[elfporn]

You can't honestly think that the only skillcap in Sub is not letting rupture fall off, I mean come.. on...
You say that tracking cooldowns and pooling energy is not rocket science and I agree, it's not, but that doesn't mean that it's easy enough for everyone to do it. 99.5% of the rogues can't utilize things like their cooldown and energy usage. And I am not exaggerating with that number. I'm spending enough time watching rogue streamers and going through logs and I can tell you even the best and most famous rogues make mistakes, and more often than you'd think. It's not because they're bad, but because Sub is extremely hard to play flawlessly.

But people do not defend the current state of Sub and Dance simply because it's "hard". More importantly it's rewarding. You plan ahead, refresh your snd, pool energy, line up your cds and execute that sweet burst phase perfectly? You feel satisfied now, even proud of yourself and feel more confident now. THAT is the feeling that keeps many rogues, myself included, so attached to the Subtlety that we know and love. And the proposed version of Shadow Dance for Legion takes all of that away and transforms the spec into another mind-numbingly boring rotational spec as what Assa is today.

atm the spec is unfinished, despite the new build. that satisfaction you want may indeed be there.

One thing i noticed with the new build was a small tidbit associated with the legendary daggers

7.0 - Legendary - Rogue - Subtlety - CP Spent Extend Shadow Blades: Your finishing moves extend the duration of Shadow Blades by 0.5 sec for each combo point spent.

7.0 - Legendary - Rogue - All - Vanish Reduces Damage Taken: Vanish reduces your damage taken by 60% for 10 sec.

7.0 - Legendary - Rogue - Assassination - Energy Spent Reduces Vendetta CD: The remaining cooldown on Vendetta is reduced by 1 sec for every 15 Energy you expend.

might be some interesting play there i think

[lolpve]

Well..apparently that is true for every class, every specc and every aspect of the game - judging by the QQ about anything and everything about the game.

That or the players who..after all are players and not developers and designers are clueless. I mean. If you guys really know so much about game design, why are you not designing games?

Subscriber numbers speak for themselves. Blizzard have turned away from the game design that led to 11 million subscribers, thinking they know better than the old team. It's arrogance essentially, fuelled by forum sycophants of course.

[Coldkil]

I wouldn't say this is naming and shaming since the post is on the front page. I'm just getting it a tad bit more attention because what he says seems like something that someone who uses logical thought shouldn't say.

The way you put down the OP sounds a little different and has room for misinterpretation - the warning wasn't about you but more a general "don't get this in the wrong way" thing.

I'm not saying if agree with you or not, but i can say that Celestalion isn't for me the best source of rogue info and i disagree with many design decisions Blizzard has taken during the years on rogues.

I welcome Legion changes, i am curious about the new spec designs but still even counting everything the game is bringing on the table i'm not going to buy this expansion. There have been too many things in the past and some are still running under the copious amount of new stuff that's being presented.

I'm not really able to explain it in detail, as a lot of it are personal opinions, but the "extreme fanservice" words come to my mind too often.