Ghostcrawler: "LFD with harder dungeons and NO LFR"

[Namalia]

For bad people who want to see endgame without being good/putting in the work.

Work =/= game.

The LF features are easily ignored by those who don't like them. What is the real problem? Is it an inability to control other players?

I think that's a big part of it. The Big, bad raiders can't control everyone's access to content now.

[Tharkkun]

For bad people who want to see endgame without being good/putting in the work.

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If we quote GC, WOW was designed to be played by your grandmother for the past 5-6 years.

That will just be ignored by the OP. It contradicts his argument.

Here's a real world example. Tim Tebow. He stinks. He's been traded like a dog and even tried out with one of the best coaches in history and he was still cut. He gives 110%, studies non-stop but never gets better at Football.

The difference is a team is paying him. In WoW we are paying to play so the role is reversed. So Blizzard makes the content they provide accessible.

[Seefer]

I forgot that Flex is Normal now. However, there is less flexibility when it comes to tanks and healers. Plus, once Flex is exhausted you're into heroic and then mythic. Then you're right back in the same old boat.

Heroic is flex also, only Mythic isn't.

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Work =/= game.


I think that's a big part of it. The Big, bad raiders can't control everyone's access to content now.

Or you know, we don't want the game dumbed down anymore, kind of hypocritical of you to say something like that though..........you know with a thread being up about REMOVAL OF RAIDING, non-raiders are just as bad if not WORSE than raiders, most of us could give 2 shits what you people do as long as it doesn't hurt the game, which a lot of what was put in for non-raiders has.

Between the homogenization of classes, the streamlined easy questing, LFR, easy mode heroics, those have hurt the game and guess what a lot of raiders don't just like to raid we like other challenging content as well!

[Blayze]

Show me your post from Blizzard stating that sub loss in Cata was due to hard heroic dungeons.

I have proof otherwise. Subs continued to decline even after the dungeons were nerfed to hell. Therefore you need to provide solid proof showing that "early cata tells you it doesn't work".

You're wrong. Here's why--it wasn't just the dungeons, it was the whole expansion, raids and all.

Patch 4.3 released on the 29th of November 2011. That means either Q3 or Q4 2011, depending on whether charts for subscription numbers go off the calendar year or the fiscal year.

Either way, would you look at that? Between Q3 2011 and Q1 2012, the subscription numbers evened out.

[Namalia]

Heroic is flex also, only Mythic isn't.

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Or you know, we don't want the game dumbed down anymore, kind of hypocritical of you to say something like that though..........you know with a thread being up about REMOVAL OF RAIDING, non-raiders are just as bad if not WORSE than raiders, most of us could give 2 shits what you people do as long as it doesn't hurt the game, which a lot of what was put in for non-raiders has.

Between the homogenization of classes, the streamlined easy questing, LFR, easy mode heroics, those have hurt the game and guess what a lot of raiders don't just like to raid we like other challenging content as well!

Much of that was put in for raiders that complained that they couldn't get their alts up to raid level quickly enough.

If you like tedious (read:challenging, as they are the same thing) content, good for you. However, to say that it must come at the expense of non-tedious (read: LFR, etc) content is showing why "raiders" have such a bad rep.

[Seefer]

Much of that was put in for raiders that complained that they couldn't get their alts up to raid level quickly enough.

If you like tedious (read:challenging, as they are the same thing) content, good for you. However, to say that it must come at the expense of non-tedious (read: LFR, etc) content is showing why "raiders" have such a bad rep.

Sorry but I found a lot of non-raiders crying that they couldn't see the content when in reality it is very easy to get into a raid.

[lazorexplosion]

I can assure you, the majority of players want LFR gone.

You and reality have the only the most tenuous of acquaintances.

You might not have noticed this, but LFR is consistently several times more popular than any of the organized raiding difficulties and has been since its inception, every anti LFR thread on the general forum gets buried in downvotes while posts defending LFR get hundreds of upvotes.

The number of pathetic sad sacks who dislike LFR but can't just do normal or higher and ignore LFR is just a miserable handful, any half way decent raider is off enjoying their plentiful hardcore raiding content before LFR is even done releasing. "Well don't fucking do it then" trivially solves any issue you actually might have with LFR.


Players of other games are somehow not retarded enough to dedicate themselves to crusades against the lowest difficulty because they deliberately set the game to a difficulty that's way below their skill level and found it to be too easy when they could trivially not do that.

[MoanaLisa]

The devs want to make raids and have figured out the way they get to make raids is to make raids "successful" by making them the main (and essentially only) option for gearing progression.

I've been toying with an idea for a while now that more people have jumped off the gearing treadmill than we know. It explains a lot. And why shouldn't they? Leveling is usually OK to good, dungeons are there and can be useful for a little while. If there's not much else to do there's no real reason to hang around and pay money every month. Next expansion there will be more leveling and the gear rewarded through that and some dungeons will be enough to get by.

Whether anyone wants to be honest about it or not, raiding and the community that surrounds it are fundamentally unfriendly to new raiders who don't know anyone to help them up. Guilds are broken enough by now that the only thing left for a lot of people are pugs and most sensible people who want to at least see the raid will say "Fuck that", run LFR once or twice and sign off for a few months. The very fact that they may only run it a few times is enough right there to signal that "gear as progression" isn't their first priority at all.

Lodging just about all end-game progression in gear has essentially hollowed out the game. LFR/LFR/GroupFinder doesn't really matter much and these endless arguments about it strike me as being more and more pointless every day. The main reason to stay in the game for a while is progression through the clothes you wear and I suspect that many more than people think aren't buying that. Especially if they've been around for a while. I believe that GC is a big proponent of carrot-on-a-stick as incentive but it's very possible that after a long time in a game that incentive looks weak to a lot of people.

I made a joke elsewhere about cake being better than carrot on a stick but I think it's true: A lot of people are smart enough to see through the carrot-on-a-stick thing. They're not horses wearing blinders. They see this for what it is. So they do the things they like, have some cake and leave. They don't really care at all about advancement and progression through gear. Really, it explains a lot of what we can see happening. That said they might care more if what they did in the game provided a sense of character progression. Something that feels more personally satisfying. But gear? Maybe not.

Progression is really an intangible thing that people sense differently. The attempts to put progression into a box and attach numbers to it looks really dumb if you back away from it far enough.

I jumped off the gear treadmill last expansion and have enjoyed the game more for it. Nearly all of my problems with Warlords have nothing to do with the gear available and the ways to get it. It's that I'm not really interested in raiding and there's little else of interest to me. I could not care less about gear as long as it's good enough to do the things I want to do. If there's nothing to do that I want to do, well, that's a problem. I think there may be a lot of people like me who don't particularly obsess on gear as progression. We rarely talk about that here because there are too many people who seem truly blinded to just how uninteresting it is as an RPG trope. They believe that everyone is like them and lusts after gear on a constant basis.

I don't find that really very convincing.

[Stonecloak]

I've been toying with an idea for a while now that more people have jumped off the gearing treadmill than we know. It explains a lot. And why shouldn't they? Leveling is usually OK to good, dungeons are there. If there's not much else to do there's no real reason to hang around and pay money every month. Next expansion there will be more leveling and the gear will be enough to get by. Fundamentally, whether anyone wants to be honest about it or not, raiding and the community that surrounds it is unfriendly to new raiders. Guilds are broken enough by now that the only thing left for a lot of people are pugs and most sensible people who want to at least see the raid will say "Fuck that", run LFR once or twice and sign off for a few months. The very fact that they may only run it a few times is enough right there to signal that "gear as progression" isn't there first priority at all.

Lodging just about all end-game progression in gear has essentially hollowed out the game. LFR/LFR/GroupFinder doesn't really matter much and these endless arguments about it strike me as being more and more pointless every day. The main reason to stay in the game for a while is progression through the clothes you wear and I suspect that many more than people think aren't buying that. Especially if they've been around for a while.

I made a joke elsewhere about cake being better than carrot on a stick but seriously: A lot of people are smart enough to see through the carrot-on-a-stick thing. They're not horses wearing blinders. They see this for what it is. So they do the things they like, have some cake and leave. They don't really care at all about advancement through gear. Really, it explains a lot of what we can see happening.

I jumped off the gear treadmill last expansion and have enjoyed the game more for it. Nearly all of my problems with Warlords have nothing to do with the gear available and the ways to get it. It's that I'm not really interested in raiding. I could not care less about gear as long as it's good enough to do the things I want to do. If there's nothing to do that I want to do, well, that's a problem.

It's a good observation, although I don't know if I would say it's gear progression per-se. I think the reward isn't worth the effort to a lot of players regarding raiding, and I think the motivation to raid is more then just gear progression. Like transmog, pets, and achievement to name a few. If they bring back 10 mans, with some clever developing to help teach players about raiding, then I think it'll be more practical than what we have now. The whole point should be on educating players, and helping them achieve a group for raiding, and then reward them for that. They can even work it into the narrative.

[lazorexplosion]

I've been toying with an idea for a while now that more people have jumped off the gearing treadmill than we know. It explains a lot. And why shouldn't they? Leveling is usually OK to good, dungeons are there. If there's not much else to do there's no real reason to hang around and pay money every month. Next expansion there will be more leveling and the gear will be enough to get by. Fundamentally, whether anyone wants to be honest about it or not, raiding and the community that surrounds it is unfriendly to new raiders. Guilds are broken enough by now that the only thing left for a lot of people are pugs and most sensible people who want to at least see the raid will say "Fuck that", run LFR once or twice and sign off for a few months. The very fact that they may only run it a few times is enough right there to signal that "gear as progression" isn't there first priority at all.

Lodging just about all end-game progression in gear has essentially hollowed out the game. LFR/LFR/GroupFinder doesn't really matter much and these endless arguments about it strike me as being more and more pointless every day. The main reason to stay in the game for a while is progression through the clothes you wear and I suspect that many more than people think aren't buying that. Especially if they've been around for a while.

I made a joke elsewhere about cake being better than carrot on a stick but seriously: A lot of people are smart enough to see through the carrot-on-a-stick thing. They're not horses wearing blinders. They see this for what it is. So they do the things they like, have some cake and leave. They don't really care at all about advancement through gear. Really, it explains a lot of what we can see happening.

Tier set bonuses that have noticeable effects on your class skills are a much more interesting gear carrot than marginal +stat upgrades, it's a huge mistake to confine them away from 90% of the player base. Yet another carrot sacrificed to further raiding instead of the game as a whole.

[MoanaLisa]

It's a good observation, although I don't know if I would say it's gear progression per-se. I think the reward isn't worth the effort to a lot of players regarding raiding, and I think the motivation to raid is more then just gear progression. Like transmog, pets, and achievement to name a few. If they bring back 10 mans, with some clever developing to help teach players about raiding, then I think it'll be more practical than what we have now. The whole point should be on educating players, and helping them achieve a group for raiding, and then reward them for that. They can even work it into the narrative.

It was just a thought and one that took me a while to fully execute so apologies for the many edits. I dunno. LFR exists because raiding at higher difficulties is still a wall for a lot of people and a wall not worth climbing. Blizzard knows this too and I'm pretty much of an opinion that it's the primary reason LFR was created and continues to exist. A lot of people have it right: Generally, it's not a good experience. But taking it away and not replacing it with something that gets someone a guaranteed spot to participate in the content will damage raiding. Blizzard has been very clear and specific about this and only idiots will not believe them.

[Stonecloak]

It was just a thought and one that took me a while to fully execute so apologies for the many edits. I dunno. LFR exists because raiding at higher difficulties is still a wall for a lot of people and a wall not worth climbing. Blizzard knows this too and I'm pretty much of an opinion that it's the primary reason LFR was created and continues to exist. A lot of people have it right: Generally, it's not a good experience. But taking it away and not replacing it with something that gets someone a guaranteed spot to participate in the content will damage raiding. Blizzard has been very clear and specific about this and only idiots will not believe them.

I agree, replace it, but I think it should still be group content. Or, if they don't remove LFR, I think players want some decent looking LFR gear, doesn't have to be what normal looks like, just not the same thing as the baleful gear. There's still a happy medium between all these difficulties I believe, and I think for the most part all of them should stay. Just with proper tweaks.

[Glorious Leader]

Tier set bonuses that have noticeable effects on your class skills are a much more interesting gear carrot than marginal +stat upgrades, it's a huge mistake to confine them away from 90% of the player base. Yet another carrot sacrificed to further raiding instead of the game as a whole.

Dude the fucking mage set bonus summons dudes from across space and time to fight by your side. Why in God's name is something so awesome relegated to such a tiny minority of players?

[tacoloco]

You talk about a lack of logic....
How is having the FINAL part of a games progression so ridiculously easy in any way logical?

Don't call me out for a lack of logic when you're not doing so well in the comprehension department.

None of my comments in this thread have anything to do with whether LFR is good or bad for the game. My posts, including the one you replied to, are aimed at people who make grand claims that LFR is the main reason for the decline in subscriptions and that if it were removed the game would "thrive" again.

That's complete and utter bullshit. LFR may be a big reason, or it may be a small reason or perhaps it's not a reason at all for significant sub losses. There is no data to support ANY position on LFR's impact on the game. Pro or con. The reality is that there are many issues with the game, many of which could easily be a big contributor to sub losses.

[hyphnos]

It was just a thought and one that took me a while to fully execute so apologies for the many edits. I dunno. LFR exists because raiding at higher difficulties is still a wall for a lot of people and a wall not worth climbing. Blizzard knows this too and I'm pretty much of an opinion that it's the primary reason LFR was created and continues to exist. A lot of people have it right: Generally, it's not a good experience. But taking it away and not replacing it with something that gets someone a guaranteed spot to participate in the content will damage raiding. Blizzard has been very clear and specific about this and only idiots will not believe them.

You're right, except that it leaves the fundamental flawed assumption untouched which is that everyone can and should be raiding and enjoying it. So you have to wonder why in god's name is Blizzard, after 10 years of evidence that people don't want to raid, try to design the content to make them do it. We all know they don't want high-cost content to go unused so we have LFR so that it gets used, which seems to all that matters to the devs. Sane people would of course, look at what people chose to do in the past when the reward system somewhat allowed them a choice of activities and expand on that. Instead we have developers who looked at the part of the game people weren't using and over the course of two expansions gutted everything else to get people to do that content, even if in a half-assed relatively unfun version of it.

Removing LFR wouldn't hurt the game a bit if there were other systems in place that were actually fun where players who wanted to gear up (to raid or for any other reason) could go. What removing LFR would hurt is raid participation, which the devs can't allow if they are going to continue to spend the bulk of the dev budget for max level making 17 boss raids.

[MoanaLisa]

You're right, except that it leaves the fundamental flawed assumption untouched which is that everyone can and should be raiding and enjoying it. So you have to wonder why in god's name is Blizzard, after 10 years of evidence that people don't want to raid, try to design the content to make them do it.

Confirmation bias is probably strong at Irvine HQ. That's likely what led to Cataclysm in that they heard the feedback from those that thought Wrath heroics too easy and personally agreed with them. Same with raids I would guess. The advantage of raids over other content is that if people step up from LFR then raid content is not so quickly burned through as nearly anything else.

But on the whole, I would guess confirmation bias plus the fact that they do a very good job on most raids. The economics of the game will eventually shake them out of this but I suspect not until after Legion. At the moment I would guess they are mulling over the results of this expansion trying to devise a rationale that somehow they didn't do enough to sell raiding as a game activity. That would fit with their inherent view of things which is that raiding, to paraphrase Watcher, is the only significant or important thing in the PVE game.

I bring this up once in a while about the interview last June with Lore and Watcher where they answered questions for an hour. There was a question was about ability pruning and somewhere in the answer Ion talked about how players "if they're doing anything of importance in the game, whether it's raiding or PVP". In the WowHead video of the interview it's just at about 42:43.

That's where they need to step back just a bit and really take a hard look at their own attitudes.

[Seefer]

Confirmation bias is probably strong at Irvine HQ. That's likely what led to Cataclysm in that they heard the feedback from those that thought Wrath heroics too easy and personally agreed with them. Same with raids I would guess. The advantage of raids over other content is that if people step up from LFR then raid content is not so quickly burned through as nearly anything else.

But on the whole, I would guess confirmation bias plus the fact that they do a very good job on most raids. The economics of the game will eventually shake them out of this but I suspect not until after Legion. At the moment I would guess they are mulling over the results of this expansion trying to devise a rationale that somehow they didn't do enough to sell raiding as a game activity. That would fit with their inherent view of things which is, to paraphrase Watcher, the only significant or important thing in the PVE game is raids.

I bring this up once in a while about the interview last June with Lore and Watcher where they answered questions for an hour. There was a question was about ability pruning and somewhere in the answer Ion talked about how players "if they're doing anything of importance in the game, whether it's raiding or PVP". In the WowHead video of the interview it's just at about 42:43.

That's where they need to step back just a bit and really take a hard look at their own attitudes.

So what would you like them to see? As I said, you put anything challenging in this game or even mention challenge and people get all hot and bothered then start their QQ about how things are too tough.

[MoanaLisa]

So what would you like them to see? As I said, you put anything challenging in this game or even mention challenge and people get all hot and bothered then start their QQ about how things are too tough.

It's not specifically about difficulty; it's about variety. You've said it yourself I think. There was lots to do in Mists if you weren't raiding. Correct me if I'm wrong. What that post you quoted was really about is how they view raiding and how that impacts everything else.

[Gheld]

Heroic is flex also, only Mythic isn't.

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Or you know, we don't want the game dumbed down anymore,

The game's not dumbed down. If you are finding the content too easy you can just try normal mode instead of LFR.

[Foj]

At the moment I would guess they are mulling over the results of this expansion trying to devise a rationale that somehow they didn't do enough to sell raiding as a game activity. That would fit with their inherent view of things which is that raiding, to paraphrase Watcher, is the only significant or important thing in the PVE game.

It's ironic that Blizzard created this incredibly successful game, yet their developers no longer understand why people play it, or as is currently the case, don't play it.