Ghostcrawler: "LFD with harder dungeons and NO LFR"

[Bapestar]

It has already become apparent what affect decreasing subs has on the quality of the game. If you really think they will make the game good again with less revenue, you haven't been paying attention to how we got where we are now in the first place.

Well noone actually knows how many people would quit. Raiding has been solid since the start of Wod and it still is, even with the massive sub loss.

[kyoloco]

this made me love him even more

[dejaa]

Sorry but no, you always had the elite and the people who just leveled and ran the AH, I get it, you hate raiding........dunno if it's because you are a bad player or what.............but raiding is not the problem.

It is the problem when it sucks such a large proportion of development resources out of the game that it and the initial questing/levelling are the only fully-developed, high quality content in the game.

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And the reason for that is based on 3 factors imo:
- players were still in their BC raiding guild
- players still did not care about achievements / ilvl or gearscore
- community was still good and not horrible towards newcomers (see over)

Don't forget that 25s and 10s had separate lockouts. It was very easy to run 25s with guild for progression and also run with "friends and family" in the easier 10s for fun and to teach newer or less experienced players how to raid. Because these were our friends and we liked playing with them. Progress wasn't swift and it was rare that the raid was cleared when it was current but no one cared. People were having fun, socializing, getting gear, and feeling they were progressing their characters. Those people are long gone, chased out by Cataclysm when the proverbial rug got yanked out from under and there was nothing for them to do in the game

Yes, those of us in strategic roles with gear from 25-man heroics carried others until they learned to pull their own weight, but that was our decision. The game should never make that decision for players.

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If Warlords has proven anything at all, it's that the current raiding model has run out of steam for player retention and game health. Something different is needed. If five million people left the game in this expansion with raiding as good as it has been, then maybe it's time to re-examine basic concepts.

Part of it is the sophistication and difficulty of raid mechanics has consistently increased over time. One of the leads, Ion I think and I can't find the reference now I'll add it later if I do, noted this is the hardest they've ever been. This means the goal posts keep moving further away regardless of whether players can keep up. I do think normal in WoD is a bit tighter than flex in MoP which leaves the game without a "beer league" that groups can spend a couple of hours in and down a few bosses. Before anyone jumps all over me, I'm talking median skill level which is a lot lower than most people especially here think.

I like the game, I like raiding. Or did. I can't be bothered any longer, I'm tired of raids making me feel like I'm in the cockpit of Apollo 13 with a constant litany of alarms, countdowns, poo fests, etc. For me, it just stopped being fun.

Focusing on alternative content would be a radical change, but perhaps it's time for it. Unfortunately, I don't see that happening with the current leadership. There's too much of a "raiding is everything" mindset.

[RickJamesLich]

I really want to see the guys that hate raiding answer this question - if raiding was removed, why would someone stay subscribed after a month? Typically the person would've already beaten all of the 5 mans. From there literally the only two things are PvP (which let's face it, WoW is never going to be good at) and pet battles (which I don't think even belong in WoW). Who would stay logged in just to make more gold from garrisons and farm the same 5 mans that they've already beaten?

Love it or hate it, I can't see any other reason for people to stay subscribed other then they can advance their characters via raiding.

That being said, raiding needs vast improvements. Get LFR out of the game already, it can still be made casual friendly through other means. And split up raids, we don't need a raid with 11 or 12 bosses in it. Make smaller raids with only 3 or 4, something you can be done with in an hour to an hour and a half once you got it on farm, but make multiple raids per tier. Right off the bat it would make things much more accessible, as you wouldn't have to sit down for a 3 or 4 hour committment.

The game needs more avenues for gear too. Brawl for all needs to be expanded on and offer upgrades. I really wish they'd just elminate cosmetic stuff, it's really bogged down the game. Grinding for that and old world mounts is what turns someone that loves wow into a fan that's really sick of blizzard. Blizz needs questing the encourages grouping up - if that means making elite mobs that are almost impossible to solo, so be it. WoW is better as a social game. 5 mans should be harder too, they should drop some gear that can last for a long time, not stuff where you get it for 2 days and then upgrade with something you can buy off the AH or from an easy mode raid. Make 5 mans drop gear that people can get excited about.

Obviously just a few ideas and there's a lot more but blizz really is starting to alienate A LOT of it's playerbase. And yes, the next expansion will have demon hunters, but when you're sitting in the city, bored off your ass for the same reasons you were in WoD, it won't mean much.

[hrugner]

Yes, they would need to make non-raiding more fun and last longer. The easiest solution would be scaling rewards and difficulty to character level in old zones, reawakening a decade of dead content.

[PuffyPussy22]

I really want to see the guys that hate raiding answer this question - if raiding was removed, why would someone stay subscribed after a month?

Depends on how they design the game. For example, in Vanilla, the vast, VAST majority of people didn't ever step foot in the raid. They were on epic quests from almost the start, exploring the entire game world, getting cool class rewards/spells, gaining lore about their characters and the world around them. Dungeons took time, and because of how long leveling took, you would actually hold onto these rewards for a while and it would be worth it. Professions were nice leveling up, the green iron armor set comes to mind as a great 20-30 set that made you feel much stronger.

I think the issue is that Blizzard doesn't seem capable of balance anymore. Its like they will not let themselves make raiding unless everyone is raiding. However the reverse side is that if everyone is raiding, they have to be funneled into raiding, or else they may do other things rather than raiding. Now the point that confuses me is do they just not count time spent doing X activity at all? If I quest for only 5 hours on one character and never quest again how do they justify making that content? I mean if everyone HAS to raid ALL THE TIME for us to be able to have raids (apparently), then why does that logic not apply to anything else? How do they justify 5 mans when I just literally skip them?

I guess what it comes down to is you can't have everyone doing all the activities without making others irrelevant, or you have a progression system ala BC/Vanilla/Wrath. Instead of an invalidating system via LFR>All. So, if everyone can't do all the activities, and if you cant justify content without everyone doing all activities, it appears Blizz has forced themselves into a model that can't justify anything unless everyone is doing it, for no apparent reason. Blizz logic I guess

[Seefer]

It is the problem when it sucks such a large proportion of development resources out of the game that it and the initial questing/levelling are the only fully-developed, high quality content in the game.

I would LOVE for someone to show me the numbers and figures Blizzard is letting them see to prove this to me.

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Depends on how they design the game. For example, in Vanilla, the vast, VAST majority of people didn't ever step foot in the raid. They were on epic quests from almost the start, exploring the entire game world, getting cool class rewards/spells, gaining lore about their characters and the world around them. Dungeons took time, and because of how long leveling took, you would actually hold onto these rewards for a while and it would be worth it. Professions were nice leveling up, the green iron armor set comes to mind as a great 20-30 set that made you feel much stronger.

Yeah then players bitched about how long it took to level and how dungeons took too long.

[Osmeric]

I would LOVE for someone to show me the numbers and figures Blizzard is letting them see to prove this to me.

Yes, I do wonder about it. The area of raids isn't that large compared to the outside world. Doesn't that mean the world should be more expensive to make, overall?

Perhaps Blizzard wants to funnel people into raiding because they see (or maybe, saw) a day when there was no outside world whatsoever, just instances. A lobby game to save money.

[dejaa]

I would LOVE for someone to show me the numbers and figures Blizzard is letting them see to prove this to me.

You don't need numbers to see the only end game content in the expansion is raiding.

[Seefer]

Yes, I do wonder about it. The area of raids isn't that large compared to the outside world. Doesn't that mean the world should be more expensive to make, overall?

Perhaps Blizzard wants to funnel people into raiding because they see (or maybe, saw) a day when there was no outside world whatsoever, just instances. A lobby game to save money.

Considering if you even MENTION removing LFD/LFR people pitch a fit...........yeah people want a lobby game, and guess what? They are basically getting it.

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You don't need numbers to see the only end game content in the expansion is raiding.

"All the money is going to raiding" PROVE IT! End of story, if you can't back shit like that up then stop saying such stupid shit.

[Daffan]

Because hardcore raiders all have Loremasters pre-Cata? Try speaking for yourself for a change. So few of you are.

Questing is not challenging content, so it's not something that interests most people. It's just a zerg.

Why don't blizzard just release 2000 mounts in the game and call that content?

And easy play means people blow through the content faster and quit sooner.

Exactly.

Blizzard cant be expected to make a new raid every week or two weeks for the LFR heroes to blow through. That's why the gate LFR wings.

Blizzard already screwed up by letting people skip everything to HFC.

[dejaa]

"All the money is going to raiding" PROVE IT! End of story, if you can't back shit like that up then stop saying such stupid shit.

Quit being an asshole. I said resources, not money.

[Granyala]

I disagree. If people knew the expectation for raiding was that you needed to get into a group through the new group builder tool, and had to have a little bit of skill (normal is the equivalent of FLEX difficulty in MoP, which was really doable on a very very casual basis), then I believe players would get less burned out and actually have something to plan for and look forward to. Right now, because LFR is in the game, it coddles players (much like flying) into doing it because its the easiest option and the path of least resistance.

Problem is that Wraths extreme easy mode set expectations and woke desires that damaged the community irreparably.
If Wraths easiness had never happened Cata LFD and LFR on the level of SoO-Flex/current normal would not have been a problem at all.

But that ship sailed once they fed the big epics to every moron regardless how little skill he has. naturally said moron now expects the game to deliver epics so LFR was born, since you cannot force these people to learn. We all know Blizzard tried with 4.0 5mans.

[Osmeric]

Problem is that Wraths extreme easy mode set expectations and woke desires that damaged the community irreparably.

Not really. What it did was reveal preferences. It didn't change people. Had Wrath not been easy, things would have started going south an expansion earlier than they did.

But that ship sailed once they fed the big epics to every moron regardless how little skill he has.

So, you're actually complaining about BC?

[Pann]

Problem is that Wraths extreme easy mode set expectations and woke desires that damaged the community irreparably.
If Wraths easiness had never happened Cata LFD and LFR on the level of SoO-Flex/current normal would not have been a problem at all.

But that ship sailed once they fed the big epics to every moron regardless how little skill he has. naturally said moron now expects the game to deliver epics so LFR was born, since you cannot force these people to learn. We all know Blizzard tried with 4.0 5mans.

How very dare people expect some enjoyment in return for their monthly fee, what you propose these 'morons' do to pass their time in game, and thus keep paying Blizzard $15 per month, if they are excluded from content due to its difficulty?

[dejaa]

Problem is that Wraths extreme easy mode set expectations and woke desires that damaged the community irreparably.
If Wraths easiness had never happened Cata LFD and LFR on the level of SoO-Flex/current normal would not have been a problem at all.

But that ship sailed once they fed the big epics to every moron regardless how little skill he has. naturally said moron now expects the game to deliver epics so LFR was born, since you cannot force these people to learn. We all know Blizzard tried with 4.0 5mans.

The problem is they did it wrong. After two years of Wrath there was no going back without a gradual ramp up. It really didn't help that the whole healer paradigm had drastically changed concurrently. It also didn't help that the rewards out of five mans were pretty crappy in comparison. If anything, BC heroics were more difficult and time consuming but they were much more rewarding.

It could have worked if they had made a solid plan to increase difficulty over the course of a couple of expansions with harder dungeons released each tier. Players accustomed to the ease of Wrath dungeons would have had to step up their game just a little bit each time instead of hitting what appeared to be a brick wall.

[Granyala]

Not really. What it did was reveal preferences. It didn't change people. Had Wrath not been easy, things would have started going south an expansion earlier than they did.

Wrong.
Wrath set the expectation that you can get stuff w/o effort (wiping) or any sort of skill (bam AE!). Naturally peeps were upset when Cata 4.0 was pretty much a brick wall, b/c suddenly CC, focus damage and interrupts mattered.

How very dare people expect some enjoyment in return for their monthly fee, what you propose these 'morons' do to pass their time in game, and thus keep paying Blizzard $15 per month, if they are excluded from content due to its difficulty?

I am not talking about ERMAGAWD mythic here.
Basic player skill a.k.a. "use CC", "know your class okayish (75%)" and "know when to interrupt mobs" coupled with "have a little patience, wiping is part of the process" and you would have had no problem with Cata's dungeons.
Imho that is not too much to ask from anybody.

The problem is they did it wrong. After two years of Wrath there was no going back without a gradual ramp up.

Pretty much, yes. I proposed that back in Cata in the forums. But ofc no one listened to me.

[Bapestar]

So, you're actually complaining about BC?

Even then there was some form of commitment to obtain them.

[Granyala]

Even then there was some form of commitment to obtain them.

He is talking out of his ass.
Most TBC heroics were easily on par with Cataclysms 5mans unless you had a raid geared pally tank. Then some got pretty faceroll.

[PuffyPussy22]

Not really. What it did was reveal preferences. It didn't change people. Had Wrath not been easy, things would have started going south an expansion earlier than they did.

No, see this is the point where you don't get to make up alternate universe scenarios and then pretend to know how they would of played out. Nothing we have seen says that people hate challenging dungeons/raids to such an extent they will quit in mass. The only evidence we actually have in reality, is that this game flourished when it was difficult. It also flourished when it was easy, but only in Wrath. Of course the idea that Arthas, the biggest lore character in the game, and also the fact that 11.5 million were playing BC and Wrath only bumped that up to 12, would kind of point to people buying into WoTLK BECAUSE of how good BC was. Not because they thought Wrath was going to be easy mode.

As far as anything, again in reality, against hard dungeons is concerned we have hard 5 mans in Cata which lost about 1 million subs. However, we then have a case where almost immediately when 5 man became easy/nerfed there is a drop by another million. Then lets look on further! We lose another million in Cata. We get LFR and lose yet another million. Man, this easy mode stuff certainly seems to be looking like shit at around this point. Again, in reality not in this alternate reality you were quoting. We then see MoP, the Expansion pack that basically says "WOW IS COMPLETELY FUCKING GONE EASY MODE GUYS" has less subs than ever and drops subs more than ANY time in this games history, yeah that includes anytime with hard modes. Hard modes certainly aren't quite looking like the problem at all at this point.

We then go into WoD, an expac that looks like BC and BC JUST SO HAPPENS to be an xpac full of some of the hardest/time consuming content in the game. Weird that an xpac that brings THAT idea to mind brings in over 10 million subs! Hmm, yeah hard modes still not looking so bad. Then, you get into the game and realize its actually easy mode MoP all over again. They just put on an orc skin, remade MoP, except gave us even less, and then called it a day. Man, I imagine all those people who were thinking they were getting BC are PRETTY pissed right about now. Oh, and it just so happens half the games population bounced. Man.... Yeah, im not seeing how casual content has helped this game at all....in reality.