Ghostcrawler: "LFD with harder dungeons and NO LFR"

[HeedmySpeed]

Removing the combat log is one of those ideas that seems good on the surface until you realize you've hindered #1 the ability for players of ALL SKILLS to see why they died in an easy to read, irrefutable numerical format #2 the ability for us to locate and document bugs (my example being in LK there was a period where DK tanks were getting crit/crushed due to a bug in their presence and that was the most concrete way to prove it).

I agree that some addons are vital for the game and the learning experience. DPS logs are the only way to properly gauge your performance and oQueue was immensely useful during it's time.

But when it comes to DBM, I think it makes the game less fun and in some cases, less challenging.
I prefer visual queue's than a timer bar personally but some mechanics are way easier to handle with DMB timers so it's hard to pass up.

Beyond dps logs and UI customization, most addons really should go.

[Foj]

Every boss mechanic I can recall is accompanied by a telegraph or a warning through emote or /yell. It has to, in order to be fair. A boss that gives no warnings is not 'difficult', it's a quarter muncher.

I have no problem with boss mechanics being telegraphed. I have a problem with them being on predictable timers that render them vulnerable to addons.

[Deleted]

Yes, yes. Greg Street and his idea of "LFR sucks".

With creating LFR he contradicted his own playstyle. Sure he doesnt like it.

[emilylorange]

I have no problem with boss mechanics being telegraphed. I have a problem with them being on predictable timers that render them vulnerable to addons.

If you removed the timers there would still be addons to emphasize the telegraph, as there are currently.

[Foj]

If you removed the timers there would still be addons to emphasize the telegraph, as there are currently.

Not with no combat log.

[tacoloco]

Ok I am done with you, you are doing nothing but trolling and being an asshole.

The irony of that comment is pretty awesome.

[Seefer]

The irony of that comment is pretty awesome.

I don't troll, I voice my opinion, what he was doing when I said that was trolling and being an asshole.......I am blunt, I am not Willy Wonka I won't sugarcoat shit so people don't get butthurt.

[Gadzooks]

Having to make budget cuts is not the same thing as having to devote the resources that were left to raiding, nor even that all the remaining resources had to go primarily to one activity over another. In any event, the developers chose raiding and based on their past experience chose to offer no alternatives so that by default player activity in raids would be high enough to justify their decision. All evidence from the past pretty much shows that when people have alternatives they choose to ignore raiding entirely and so it is untenable to believe the devs will ever be allowed to return to making raids that 1-5% of players use, ergo they make damned sure that nothing (other than sub losses) drags down raid participation metrics which would plummet back to where they were when they had alternatives in the game.

Dude, make your own points, stop trying to make mine fit the box you're trying to cram them into.

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The irony of that comment is pretty awesome.

Why people respond is beyond me, unless they're new here.

[emilylorange]

Not with no combat log.

Then you have willfully ignored the part of my post you forgot to quote, where I pointed out the drawbacks for everyone, including non 'raiders', of doing so.

[Coronius]

I don't troll, I voice my opinion, what he was doing when I said that was trolling and being an asshole.......I am blunt, I am not Willy Wonka I won't sugarcoat shit so people don't get butthurt.

LOL

OnT: Some people seem to think that Ghostcrawler himself made the decision to add LFR during his time as a developer on Blizzard, when it's in fact a whole team of designers that decide these things. And even if he did contribute to it's inclusion in WoW, there's nothing wrong with admitting your mistakes and changing your mind.

[hyphnos]

Dude, make your own points, stop trying to make mine fit the box you're trying to cram them into.

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Why people respond is beyond me, unless they're new here.

At what point in any of the text you quoted did I attribute one tiny aspect of what I was saying to you? You brought up the possibility of budget cuts and that the idea that if more resources were devoted to the game for more content that would be great. I don't disagree with that if the resources were used for a variety of content, I just don't believe that this group of developers will dare to go down that path and nothing I said indicated that I believe anything similar.

What I said and in no way implied that you did was that regardless of what the dev budget is, the developers were the ones to choose to use it all on raids and to assume that if more resources were poured into the game that the devs would magically decide to spend those resources on content that would gut raid participation is a fantasy. They gave alternatives in the past and raid participation was by their own admission deemed to low and LFR was born. What on earth makes you think they will, having justified massive expenditures on raids and giant raid tiers via LFR participation will just abandon that by offering up a bunch of alternatives to raiding that put them right back in the box they were in at the end of WOTLK and early Cataclysm?

If they were willing to make a lot of content that provided alternatives to raiding, they would do so. I think the reason they don't is because they know what will happen to raid participation when they do (as they have those numbers from when they offered badge gear in the past) and they will go kicking and screaming into the night before they will admit that there are at best a million or so customers who have any long term interest in organized large group raids and make more than throwaway content for the rest until the rest are essentially gone.

[RickJamesLich]

At what point in any of the text you quoted did I attribute one tiny aspect of what I was saying to you? You brought up the possibility of budget cuts and that the idea that if more resources were devoted to the game for more content that would be great. I don't disagree with that if the resources were used for a variety of content, I just don't believe that this group of developers will dare to go down that path and nothing I said indicated that I believe anything similar.

What I said and in no way implied that you did was that regardless of what the dev budget is, the developers were the ones to choose to use it all on raids and to assume that if more resources were poured into the game that the devs would magically decide to spend those resources on content that would gut raid participation is a fantasy. They gave alternatives in the past and raid participation was by their own admission deemed to low and LFR was born. What on earth makes you think they will, having justified massive expenditures on raids and giant raid tiers via LFR participation will just abandon that by offering up a bunch of alternatives to raiding that put them right back in the box they were in at the end of WOTLK and early Cataclysm?

If they were willing to make a lot of content that provided alternatives to raiding, they would do so. I think the reason they don't is because they know what will happen to raid participation when they do (as they have those numbers from when they offered badge gear in the past) and they will go kicking and screaming into the night before they will admit that there are at best a million or so customers who have any long term interest in organized large group raids and make more than throwaway content for the rest until the rest are essentially gone.

Besides raiding, what part of the game has any sort of shelf life? If they took out raiding, people would literally run out of stuff to do in less then a week of hitting max level. I guess there's PvP (which IMO hasn't been good in a long time) and pet battles (lol)..... really what would there be to do? People stay in the garrison long enough as it is lol, you want to hang out there longer?

[Deleted]

Pretty sure most wow devs agree that LFR was a mistake overall (longterm) but now that it's in the game they can't possibly remove it (just think about the flying removal outcry).

[PuffyPussy22]

I'm not sure of your point. First you say it is incorrect that accessible dungeons are more popular, but then say there is no way of knowing. If you can't know, how do you know it's wrong? Especially since you correctly point out that the subs have decreased as dungeon difficulty has increased.

The cause and effect is plain enough. Easy play means that more people will play. Exclusion is death.

You seem to have misread my entire post. Look through it carefully and find the point where I say, "Its incorrect that accessible dungeons are more popular". I, very clearly for that matter, say that there is no way to know for sure. However, reality states that IF we are going to assume a problem with dungeons as the culprit, then the game has been on a decline in subs since easy mode dungeons post Wrath.

I didn't state this at all...You gotta work on that comprehension man... Sigh....If you go back and look at the graph you will clearly see that during mid Cata, when dungeons became easy, subs drop off even further than during the 1st quarter of hard dungeons. The whole point was you were saying easy dungeons = game is success because of Wrath. That isn't supported at all by the last 2 1/2 xpacs. I would also say that Wrath could of(not was, since Im sure you will miss this context) been popular despite easy mode dungeons. There is no way to know however.


@EVERYONE

Just wanted to note a couple of things regarding post Wrath that people seem to be skipping when arguing. First, Cata was the first time we REALLY got to try out LFD. Wrath was mostly without LFD til the end of the xpac. That was a HUGE change for the game on many levels, mainly in that it hurt community. Lets not assume the FULL effect of that was capable of being seen in the very small timeframe Wrath gave us. It could very well have been when people came back for Cata that they realized what it actually did from a leveling to raiding perspective.

Lets also not forget when arguing LFR wasn't the issue regarding Cata, because subs dropped before that, that subs dropped THE MOST during the patch featuring MASS NERFS. This is important, because when discussing LFR its not just a blind slap at LFR, its what LFR represents. That being an easy, convenient way to completely finish the game and leaving little else left. The mid nerf in Cata also happened to be a change for easy, convenient dungeons that allow you to skip into raiding while leaving little else left. Its as if convenience, of which LFR is a part of, along with LFD, along with easy mode dungeons, along with streamlining of every ability, along with streamlining questing, along with streamlining talents, its ALMOST as if the game has only lost subs since this FUNDAMENTAL change that COMPLETELY changes everything about the game has taken place.

I personally think if you want to argue that this wasn't what is driving the game into the ground, then please post something else that has DRASTICALLY, FUNDAMENTALLY changed every facet of the game as much as streamlining/dumbing down through various means has. No, theres no way for me to prove this, and no I don't claim this to be the fact. I just think its the best thing we have to work with unless someone can point out, and back up with solid logic, something else that has substantially changed the game.

[HeedmySpeed]

Pretty sure most wow devs agree that LFR was a mistake overall (longterm) but now that it's in the game they can't possibly remove it (just think about the flying removal outcry).

There was outcry, yes, but did that affect subscriptions? Hardly. Let the tears flow, imo. Maybe then dungeons will have purpose like they use to.

[PuffyPussy22]

Yes, yes. Greg Street and his idea of "LFR sucks".

With creating LFR he contradicted his own playstyle. Sure he doesnt like it.

He's not the only guy on the team. He could of been against everything regarding LFR, and if you read more about him and the kind of games he likes, it would become apparent he, as a gamer, probably dislikes the concept of LFR alot. Hell, just go read "Wow, dungeons are hard". Google it and read for yourself how Ghostcrawler feels about easy, rewarding, cheapened dungeons/raids/mechanics/etc etc. The idea in general appears to be quite disgusting too him as a gamer.

Likewise, Ian is probably truly against no flying, yet flying is in the game. Did he go against himself? Well, probably not, his hand could of been forced by a series of votes within the company, player feedback, player money, activision, etc, etc. Too many factors to go around spouting off that Ghostcrawler contradicted himself.

[Raugnaut]

It is the person's choice to select the appropriate difficulty. If they want to play easy mode, they can. If they want to raid harder difficulty, they can. Blizzard should dictate the difficult to the individual.

The mistakes that Blizzard made were, in my opinion.

Not sharing the loot lockout of LFR with the other difficulties. For some people, they felt they need to run LFR to maximize their loot drop, either for personal gain or to ease the progression in the higher difficulty. This lead to people raiding multiple tiers.

Requiring clearing of lower difficulty to unlock higher difficulty. I am not sure of this is still the case with WoD. I have raided this expansion but this was the case in the past.

Burned occurred during WoTLK, before LFR, because some were raiding more than difficulties for maximum loot drop. They removed that during Cata but reinstated later. If the introduce shared loot lockout for LFR, then yes, it would remove the incentive to raid other difficulties. If that means less experience and geared players in the "LFR" difficulty, then so be it. Maybe this would encourage players to improve.

You no longer need to clear in order to do a higher difficulty. Mythic can be entered without a single player ever killing heroic/normal versions of the last boss.

[jbombard]

Pretty sure most wow devs agree that LFR was a mistake overall (longterm) but now that it's in the game they can't possibly remove it (just think about the flying removal outcry).

They absolutely could remove it, AS LONG AS they put in something to replace it. Just taking it out wouldn't solve anything though. Also, a big part of the problem is that LFR had such a negative effect that most of the people that gave a shit about the community are long gone. The community likely wouldn't get better by removing LFR at this point, because not enough people are left that give a shit about community. Still I don't think LFR is doing much other than burning people out at this point, they need replacement casual progression content for those players that is, you know, actually enjoyable and engaging.

[Bapestar]

There was outcry, yes, but did that affect subscriptions? Hardly. Let the tears flow, imo. Maybe then dungeons will have purpose like they use to.

Yes! Let the cry babies cry and quit. It would actually be better with them gone, then Blizzard can focus on making the game good again.

[jbombard]

Yes! Let the cry babies cry and quit. It would actually be better with them gone, then Blizzard can focus on making the game good again.

It has already become apparent what affect decreasing subs has on the quality of the game. If you really think they will make the game good again with less revenue, you haven't been paying attention to how we got where we are now in the first place.