Ghostcrawler: "LFD with harder dungeons and NO LFR"

[Deleted]

So, basically, 4.0.3 ?

Ah, yes, because that went so well too.

[Hraklea]

I agree with harder content, but I don't see why you'd remove LFR...

[Blackmist]

Hard LFD was already tried in Cata and it was wall-to-wall misery.

You either did it as a guild group (and therefore skipped he LFD part altogether), or you had to carry some scrub who couldn't move out of shit and blamed the healer.

And I don't like LFR, but lots of people do. I used to run it on a poorly geared alt when I was bored, but they took all the interesting bonuses and trinkets away from that, so I no longer bother.

I quite like the fact that there's fuck all to do in WoW apart from raid. I can just log for raid days, quit when I get bored, and work through all those Steam games I got because they were cheap, while forgetting I have little time to play them.

[grexly75]

Thats how he really feels. If everything was out on the table, all the pros and cons, he would have chosen harder dungeons, keep LFD, NO LFR. I agree with him.

But you are talking about hindsight here and what we should of done.. The thing is if LFR never existed you would have to wonder what the raiding landscape would look like now.. The other thing you have to ask yourself is why did Blizz bring in LFR to begin with there must have been a real and valid reason for them bringing it in, but it is something we will probably never know..

[Deleted]

LFR saved raiding. LFR gave them a reason to develop content that was previously seen by such a small amount of the playerbase it's a wonder they kept raiding in as long as they did.

Just plain bullshit. They've produced raid content for years before that, there was never any plan to get rid of raiding. LFR didn't save raiding, it harmed it.

[l33t]

IDo you agree with Ghostcrawler? I sure as hell do.

I laugh at GC, because isn't his team held responsible for such poor designs? And now he is suddenly quoted like some sort of a wise prophet who knows how to do things right. Really? GC's team decisions had killed 90% of the game's spirit.

I wonder whether in 2-3 years people would praise Holinka

[oldgeezer]

Right now, because LFR is in the game, it coddles players (much like flying) into doing it because its the easiest option and the path of least resistance.

It's the path of least resistance for the crappiest raid gear in game. I don't have a problem with that (the quality of the drops); the incentive for moving up to a higher difficulty with appropriately better rewards is there. But most people choose not to take it; the toxicity of the community is seen as an impediment and it seems like a large proportion of the player base aren't prepared to put in the time (and social) commitments to recreate that Vanilla/BC gaming experience these days. That's fine.

[Jaylock]

LFR saved raiding. LFR gave them a reason to develop content that was previously seen by such a small amount of the playerbase it's a wonder they kept raiding in as long as they did.

Those players who were not interested in raiding, are still not interested in raiding. Sure you will get a larger portion of players "seeing the content" but was it really worth the degradation of the game for the sake of convenience?

The group builder tool is a fair bridge imo. It allows players to find other players cross realm in a very easy way. People who potentially only do LFR would still be able to get into groups and "see the content." Maybe not at the pace of speed that it is now, with doing a 2 hour run and you kill at least 3-4 bosses, but im sure they would steadily progress.

LFR didn't "save raiding." Raiding would always be around regardless of how many subs were gained or lost. Vanilla, TBC, WOTLK, and CATA are my case in point. 10 million subs+ through all those expansions with NO LFR. How on earth can anyone make a case for it when the moment they implemented it into the game, subscriptions started to fall?

[grexly75]

Hard LFD was already tried in Cata and it was wall-to-wall misery.

You either did it as a guild group (and therefore skipped he LFD part altogether), or you had to carry some scrub who couldn't move out of shit and blamed the healer.

And I don't like LFR, but lots of people do. I used to run it on a poorly geared alt when I was bored, but they took all the interesting bonuses and trinkets away from that, so I no longer bother.

I quite like the fact that there's fuck all to do in WoW apart from raid. I can just log for raid days, quit when I get bored, and work through all those Steam games I got because they were cheap, while forgetting I have little time to play them.

I am actually and I can't believe I am saying this but I am playing and enjoying GW2 when I am not raiding in WoW.. Did my first dungeon Ascalonian Catacombs in that game and well it was fun and challenging.. And with 10 man raiding coming in the Heart of Thorns xpac I am even more excited that I will have something to do during my non raid days in WoW..

[Jaylock]

It's the path of least resistance for the crappiest raid gear in game. I don't have a problem with that (the quality of the drops); the incentive for moving up to a higher difficulty with appropriately better rewards is there. But most people choose not to take it; the toxicity of the community is seen as an impediment and it seems like a large proportion of the player base aren't prepared to put in the time (and social) commitments to recreate that Vanilla/BC gaming experience these days. That's fine.

You may have some valid concerns, but with the implementation of the new group builder tool, a lot of the issues you brought up is alleviated. There is still that random element of players being matched together, but it allows people to still vet one another to make sure the group will succeed.

[Deleted]

Indeed.
Raids should be something off the easy mode. They are meant to be the biggest threat in the game. For true heroes only!
Because else... "YOU.ARE.NOT.PREPARED"*

*: and the fact you are paying the game doesn't mean you have the right to kill some badass in easy-mode

[grexly75]

Those players who were not interested in raiding, are still not interested in raiding. Sure you will get a larger portion of players "seeing the content" but was it really worth the degradation of the game for the sake of convenience?

The group builder tool is a fair bridge imo. It allows players to find other players cross realm in a very easy way. People who potentially only do LFR would still be able to get into groups and "see the content." Maybe not at the pace of speed that it is now, with doing a 2 hour run and you kill at least 3-4 bosses, but im sure they would steadily progress.

LFR didn't "save raiding." Raiding would always be around regardless of how many subs were gained or lost. Vanilla, TBC, WOTLK, and CATA are my case in point. 10 million subs+ through all those expansions with NO LFR. How on earth can anyone make a case for it when the moment they implemented it into the game, subscriptions started to fall?

But you seem to have not looked at the bigger picture, and that is why did they put LFR in to begin with there must have been a reason why, a reason that only those at Blizz know..

[lunchbox2042]

No. Subs would drop even faster. Not a good idea to Wildstar the game at this point. That boat sailed in 2007.

Subscription numbers have nothing to do with my personal enjoyment of the game. High subscription numbers does t mean better content.

[Deleted]

uh who would have guessed that making an mmo into a single player experience was a bad idea?

[grexly75]

You may have some valid concerns, but with the implementation of the new group builder tool, a lot of the issues you brought up is alleviated. There is still that random element of players being matched together, but it allows people to still vet one another to make sure the group will succeed.

I have to laugh there while group builder may be fine it is not always that great.. Especially if you find a group but you can't join because you don't have the AOTC for that raid.. Or you get a RL/ML who is a loot ninja, but you say "make your own" and I say "I don't want to make my own that's why I am in the group tool"..lol

[Deleted]

No LFR was the better way to go.

Was it the better way to go? No.

Was it the cheaper and less productive way to go? Yes, if they weren't the first on the MMORPG market to boom in numbers (and thus having the freedom to exploit addicts) they would never have introduced it.

[Hamski]

LFR saved raiding. LFR gave them a reason to develop content that was previously seen by such a small amount of the playerbase it's a wonder they kept raiding in as long as they did.

Bullshit. /10char

[Deleted]

I agree with harder content, but I don't see why you'd remove LFR...

In fact, I don't either. Though LFR should have a shared lockout with the higher difficulties to give people the freedom to not do it without falling behind in their guild.

[Deleted]

Those players who were not interested in raiding, are still not interested in raiding. Sure you will get a larger portion of players "seeing the content" but was it really worth the degradation of the game for the sake of convenience?

The group builder tool is a fair bridge imo. It allows players to find other players cross realm in a very easy way. People who potentially only do LFR would still be able to get into groups and "see the content." Maybe not at the pace of speed that it is now, with doing a 2 hour run and you kill at least 3-4 bosses, but im sure they would steadily progress.

LFR didn't "save raiding." Raiding would always be around regardless of how many subs were gained or lost. Vanilla, TBC, WOTLK, and CATA are my case in point. 10 million subs+ through all those expansions with NO LFR. How on earth can anyone make a case for it when the moment they implemented it into the game, subscriptions started to fall?

I agree. Everybody who was interested in raiding could raid every raid in WotLK. It was casual enough back then.

And yes, subs starting to fall with Cataclysm and the implementation of LFR seems to me to be no coincidence.

[Sansnom]

I disagree. If people knew the expectation for raiding was that you needed to get into a group through the new group builder tool, and had to have a little bit of skill (normal is the equivalent of FLEX difficulty in MoP, which was really doable on a very very casual basis), then I believe players would get less burned out and actually have something to plan for and look forward to. Right now, because LFR is in the game, it coddles players (much like flying) into doing it because its the easiest option and the path of least resistance.

It is the person's choice to select the appropriate difficulty. If they want to play easy mode, they can. If they want to raid harder difficulty, they can. Blizzard should dictate the difficult to the individual.

The mistakes that Blizzard made were, in my opinion.

Not sharing the loot lockout of LFR with the other difficulties. For some people, they felt they need to run LFR to maximize their loot drop, either for personal gain or to ease the progression in the higher difficulty. This lead to people raiding multiple tiers.

Requiring clearing of lower difficulty to unlock higher difficulty. I am not sure of this is still the case with WoD. I have raided this expansion but this was the case in the past.

Burned occurred during WoTLK, before LFR, because some were raiding more than difficulties for maximum loot drop. They removed that during Cata but reinstated later. If the introduce shared loot lockout for LFR, then yes, it would remove the incentive to raid other difficulties. If that means less experience and geared players in the "LFR" difficulty, then so be it. Maybe this would encourage players to improve.