Spec question - Sin vs. Sub

[Laffable]

I've been waffling back and forth lately about which spec I wanna play leading into Legion. For most of the past 2 xpacs I've ran as assassin and I love the "feel" of it. I recently switched to sub and while the complexity is intriguing, I've struggled with the peaks and valleys the spec experiences vs. the sustained dps. My question is, with my current gear-level, stats, and considering the fact that my raid group is doing heroic progression, would my dps be viable as assassin at the current content or would I be gimping myself and my group by not going

Thanks for your help!

[delus]

I've been waffling back and forth lately about which spec I wanna play leading into Legion. For most of the past 2 xpacs I've ran as assassin and I love the "feel" of it. I recently switched to sub and while the complexity is intriguing, I've struggled with the peaks and valleys the spec experiences vs. the sustained dps. My question is, with my current gear-level, stats, and considering the fact that my raid group is doing heroic progression, would my dps be viable as assassin at the current content or would I be gimping myself and my group by not going

Thanks for your help!

There's no way of knowing. At the present, there is no reason to believe the specs will NOT be equal in terms of dps output.

[Laffable]

There's no way of knowing. At the present, there is no reason to believe the specs will NOT be equal in terms of dps output.

I appreciate the response! I was more looking at the current game, not the expansion. I apologize for not being more clear. Also, I realized that since I'm new and can't post links, I can't link my armory. However, my character is Laffable of Earthen Ring.

[Ajhian]

Hello there! Random rogue here, I've played assas throughout cata till now, love the spec, would never change it for anything. Of course I get people whispering me and telling me that sub is the better spec and that it has more dps, but that's all irrelevant to me. For you, I can assure you that Assassination will not hold your group back in any way, as long as you can play it well, there's no issue with going assa for Heroics. At 720 all you really need is the mastery enchants for your weapons if you decide to stick with ass, but the most important thing you'd really need is your four set.

[Laffable]

Hello there! Random rogue here, I've played assas throughout cata till now, love the spec, would never change it for anything. Of course I get people whispering me and telling me that sub is the better spec and that it has more dps, but that's all irrelevant to me. For you, I can assure you that Assassination will not hold your group back in any way, as long as you can play it well, there's no issue with going assa for Heroics. At 720 all you really need is the mastery enchants for your weapons if you decide to stick with ass, but the most important thing you'd really need is your four set.

This is great! Thanks so much. I was definitely concerned that my stats wouldn't lend themselves to moving back to assassin. I'm sitting at my 2-piece right now, but I'll keep working on it.

[delus]

This is great! Thanks so much. I was definitely concerned that my stats wouldn't lend themselves to moving back to assassin. I'm sitting at my 2-piece right now, but I'll keep working on it.

It is also worth noting that sass will basically be the same. Dispatch will be gone and garrote will be juggled along with rupture. There's a lot about the sub rotation we don't know yet at this point in development. As of present, we don't even know if the end result will be anything resembling the current sub rotation although they seem to be giving shadow dance another go as an active ability.

[Deleted]

Can't really comment on what's in store for legion, but right now Sub is significantly better at ST. Mut's rotation is indeed easier and its damage output isn't terrible by any means, but if you really want to support your guild to the fullest, play Sub/Combat. Subtelty's main stat - Multistrike - is actually good for Combat when cleaving, so there is synergy between the specs that you can't really have with Mut.

Long story short, it's a question of your preference vs your guild's need.

If you want numbers, you can check the Simcraft results post that's been stickied:

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...esults-for-WoD

[delus]

Can't really comment on what's in store for legion, but right now Sub is significantly better at ST. Mut's rotation is indeed easier and its damage output isn't terrible by any means, but if you really want to support your guild to the fullest, play Sub/Combat. Subtelty's main stat - Multistrike - is actually good for Combat when cleaving, so there is synergy between the specs that you can't really have with Mut.

Long story short, it's a question of your preference vs your guild's need.

If you want numbers, you can check the Simcraft results post that's been stickied:

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...esults-for-WoD

Careful there. All stat values are at BIS levels That's mythic warforged. At lower ilvls the difference is a bit less pronounced. I suggest using shadowcraft for a general idea of what dps you should see assuming you play both specs to the fullest.. A couple thousand dps isn't going to make or break your guild.

[Xaryen]

I suggest using shadowcraft for a general idea of what dps you should see.

No, you should never use Shadowcraft for estimating dps or comparing specs. Also said thread is pretty outdated and uses regular mythic gear without valor upgrades putting it at an ilvl similiar to a currently heroic geared rogue, using it for comparing dps between specs would still be pretty rough especially because of the trinket difference, but it can give you the general idea of how the specs compare. Howere safest bet will always be to sim(using simcraft) your character with your current gear.

[Laffable]

I appreciate all the responses- certainly has given me a lot to think about. Simming the DPS differences sounds like a solid idea to get a feel for how my dos would be affected one way or the other.

[Deleted]

Just to share a personal opinion

Assassination was most enjoyable during TBC and WOTLK. Cataclysm later forced rogues to use rupture by adding venomous wounds for energy regeneration instead of focused attacks, which was a passive that restored per individual crit.

IMO it was a much more enjoyable system, it allowed you to focus on your environment and surrounds rather than debuff uptime. Keep envenom up was already a reasonable enough request. Tracking 2 buffs isn't any more fun than tracking one buff.

WOD was good for bring passive slice and dice. I still think assassination lacks "fun" tools. Vendetta is very lackluster. The whole spec needs some attention - however the Legions alpha has not been done yet so I cannot complain. I am quite eager to see what they have in mind.

I can't really comment on end game cata, mop, or wod, because I barely played during those times let alone to a competitive level. The "heroic" gear just didn't interest me enough to having a different loot for 25 man items.

But as for is assassinations in an acceptable position in its current state - yes it is.

The reason people are playing combat/sub is because they can use the same gear, weapons, and enchants (multi strike) and switch between them depending on the encounter. Adding assassinations instead of combat or sub ideally requires different gear enchants (haste I believe, but I could be wrong) and it obviously requires daggers which may be somewhat hard to obtain as you'd need to be raiding to get them in the first place.

[enragedgorilla]

Careful there. All stat values are at BIS levels That's mythic warforged. At lower ilvls the difference is a bit less pronounced. I suggest using shadowcraft for a general idea of what dps you should see assuming you play both specs to the fullest.. A couple thousand dps isn't going to make or break your guild.

2nd this if it hasn't been already...and honestly if you haven't been done with Mythic HFC for months now,or if you are fully Mythic geared...(why would you even ask then?)...you really do not need to worry about it...unless you are near OCD about "being the best" and know your gear,rotations,proc rates etc. like your next breath...play what you love,play what your gear supports stat wise, Have fun.
Run what is fun and what you are most competent/Geared for.

[elfporn]

It's Mut, not Sin.

Thank you.

It's Sin not Mut.

LET THERE BE WAR BETWEEN US!


I recommend sub for progression due to the higher ST dps. I'd only ever do sin for giggles on full farm.

[ticktock19]

Careful there. All stat values are at BIS levels That's mythic warforged. At lower ilvls the difference is a bit less pronounced. I suggest using shadowcraft for a general idea of what dps you should see assuming you play both specs to the fullest.. A couple thousand dps isn't going to make or break your guild.

Be careful. Shadowcraft is NOT a dps simulator, and is meant to help with gear decisions rather than give you a projected damage output.

[Eazy]

Be careful. Shadowcraft is NOT a dps simulator, and is meant to help with gear decisions rather than give you a projected damage output.

Do you know any other nice site for that?

OT:
Subtlety - for hard progression if your guild is struggling with DPS.
Assassination - it's easier, there's no doubt, some pros even preffer it over Sub on some fights, but - don't expect getting RANK1 on the Logs. Still - NOT BAD spec, totally viable.

[ticktock19]

Do you know any other nice site for that?

There isn't one, but that doesn't make SC a dps simulator. Use with caution, but certainly use it while keeping its purpose in mind.

[Laffable]

Just to follow up on this, I did make the jump back to Sin/Mut/Ass and my DPS was higher across the board- usually by a not-so-insignificant amount. I attribute this mostly to a comfort-level with the spec, and I still anticipate my dps to grow a bit. I may give sub another shot once I have the 4pc, as it sounds like sub takes a huge step forward at that point- same with getting my hands on a soul cap. My guild has only cleared through H Iskar, so I think it's also fair to say that the optimization of sub may not be the most important thing for us at this point. However, from a purely competitive standpoint, I would love to be able to challenge some of the top dps'ers on our team. I currently slot anywhere from 5th-10th on any given fight with usually around 60k dps, and that's with some big numbers from Gorefiend and Kilrogg. That isn't good enough for my standards

[Vaith]

Just to follow up on this, I did make the jump back to Sin/Mut/Ass and my DPS was higher across the board- usually by a not-so-insignificant amount. I attribute this mostly to a comfort-level with the spec, and I still anticipate my dps to grow a bit. I may give sub another shot once I have the 4pc, as it sounds like sub takes a huge step forward at that point- same with getting my hands on a soul cap. My guild has only cleared through H Iskar, so I think it's also fair to say that the optimization of sub may not be the most important thing for us at this point. However, from a purely competitive standpoint, I would love to be able to challenge some of the top dps'ers on our team. I currently slot anywhere from 5th-10th on any given fight with usually around 60k dps, and that's with some big numbers from Gorefiend and Kilrogg. That isn't good enough for my standards

If you are willing to learn sub I am willing to help you out. Add my btag Vaith#1240

[Laffable]

If you are willing to learn sub I am willing to help you out. Add my btag Vaith#1240

Added- thank you!